Hi Alex,
sorry no I haven't. But I could imagine (could also be wrong) that they are not my kind of speakers.

Kind regards
Christian

Hi Christian,

I read a lot good things about Klangfilm speakers on Russian audio forums.
As I know these vintage speakers are not cheap but they should be very good.
They are not such bargain as Altecs today, because high market prices.
Did you have any experience with Klangfilm speakers or amplifiers yourself?

Regards,
Alex.

Hi Alex,

Thank you for telling me about that, I did not know that. I've always thought it would be fun to visit Odessa because of the family history. My great grandfather was a school teacher in Odessa after they emigrated there from Germany, as well as an accomplished wood worker. It's possible that some of my Mom's relatives (the family name was Phillips) still reside there, but I don't know for sure, as family connections were lost track of long ago.

Kind regards,

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I have a number of friends who was born in Odessa.
All of them I very creative and thinking out of box people.
Odessa is famous for special sense of humor of people are living there.

Regards,
Alex.

Hi Alex,

When I read your note I couldn't help but to relate to it. My Mother's family was living in Germany, then moved to Odessa in the Ukraine, back when it was part of the USSR in the old days. Eventually, they emigrated to the USA when things began to become difficult in the USSR for them.

It's a small world after all.

Kind regards,

Jeff

Thanks. 🙂

Hi Christian,

Yes my family name has a German origin.
But I was growing up in USSR. I moved in age 17 and was living many years in Israel. Now I live in Canada.
I bought my Altec in Israel from one person who brought them from US.
He brought 2 pairs of Altec 604. One pair was Mastering Labs Red monitors. My pair had drivers and crossovers without cabinets. Previous owner built cabinets himself.

Regards,
Alex.

Hi Alex,
your name suggests that you are a German.
Where are you from?
Do you own a Altec speaker?

Kind regards
Christian

Hello Jeff,

thank you for your response. I maybe haven't explained it correct because we both seem to think the same.

Even if the Harbeth plays lower in free field a 15" driver move so much more air that the influence in room gain will be so much higher (I guess) that it plays deeper even if it don't measure that deep in comparison to the 8" driver.

Very, very interesting what you write about Altec, as I said I couldn't listen to one unfortunately. I have only read comments in a German forum from several person that they are very good in many things but that the tonality isn't their biggest strength.

I'm very happy to hear that this isn't true and if you as an ex-owner prefer them tonal over a SHL5 which I know very, very well and over a M40.1 (wich I'd like have owned in the past) this means something.

If people didn't listened to a Harbeth speaker before the mostly don't understand what the midrange-tonality-timbre hype is all about. Once you have heard it, it is hard to ignore the faults many other speakers make.

Odeon is one of the few brands wich have a midrange-tonality-timbre comparable to Harbeth for my ears.

Now I can add Altec to that list to. Thank you very much for your advice.

Is there a "best buy" or guide which Altec can be interesting?

Greetings from over the Atlantic
Christian 🙂

Hi Christian,

An interesting theory discussion based upon what the magazine reported, but having owned both the Westminster Royal SE's and the Harbeth Super HL5's, and having measured both loudspeakers' frequency response in my rooms via RTA and test tones (some years ago, after other readers brought up this same topic, which has been rattling around for a while now), I can tell you what that magazine reported doesn't match the measured in-room low-frequency response I observed (and no, my Harbeth's didn't come close to matching the West's low-frequency extension). So that's not just my casual perceptions, that's measurement. Been there, done that.

I may have posted that data as a blog post, so you could try searching on it. If not, when I get the West's back into the system after the conclusion of the Duelund-Altec Project, I'll try and give them another measure if I have time and post it. Although, having gone through this measurement drill once before for readers, my enthusiasm for addressing the topic again is low.

No offense intended at all, but in my experience this topic is only repeated by readers who don't have actual experience listening to and measuring Westminster's in their own room, and are just citing a magazine's reported results. It makes people think they know something they don't know.

I'm a little surprised readers keep citing this magazine when the topic has been addressed before, but I suppose that's the way of things, and by all means, believe the magazine instead of me if you want to, I'm not the thought police.

I very much enjoyed my Harbeth's tonality over the years that I owned them, they can have great overall tone in the right room. However, the vintage Altec's easily outdo the tonality that I heard from my SHL5's and M40.1's, which is why I have 3 pairs of Altec's now and no Harbeth's.

If you get a chance, I encourage you to listen to a well implemented pair of vintage or modern Altec's, they're really something special, and then you'll better understand why a number of audio designers and reviewers have them in their loudspeaker collections to use as references.

Kind regards,

Jeff

Hi Jeff,
you're welcome and thank you for your kind words too.
To me the -6dB @ 56Hz arn't that unusual with that kind of driver (size, efficiency and type). The roomgain helps to improve the bass. I have had a 15" bass speaker driver with a -6dB point around 38Hz, in my room I have had bass down to 20Hz with it. This mass/size of driver pushes much more air then some smaller ones and so the room gain influence (especially the subjective "feeling") is higher.

Compared the Harbeth SHL5+ has the -6dB point at 29Hz, so it playes deeper but the difference of power and moving air let you think that the 15" driver plays way deeper.

If your speaker 15" bass driver speaker can only produce 50Hz and your 8" midrange-bass-driver can produce 40Hz you will always think that the 15" will play deeper because of the air shifting. IMHO it is also very hard do recognize if you listening to 30Hz, 40 Hz or 50Hz. You may recognize that if you have a track that goes down to 30Hz that with the 40Hz speaker there is something missing but without knowing the played frequency it is very hard to tell to say which frequency is in the music (from 20-70Hz).

BTW: A recording engineer told me that there are thousands of records without any notes under 50Hz because they may damage the consumer speakers (phone, headphone, laptop, TV, etc.) if they are played to loud. And also many PA speakers aren't able to play that deep.

If you will have a PA arrey with many big drivers and you will play such deep notes very loud the is a big risk, that the people who are close to the speaker will throw up.

And the most forgotten thing, there are not that many instruments who can play that deep.

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

So don't worry if they really "only" play -6dB @ 56Hz in free field(!) in your room they will play way deep enough in most cases.

@ Altec: I'm a die hard fan of the tonality of Harbeth speakers, and the Odeon is on of the few other speaker designs who play with nearly that good tonality but with the speed and dynamic of a horn speaker.

It is a rare combination because it uses a 5" midrange driver with a horn. Normally in horn speakers the typical driver is a compression driver.

You can look here (the 3 way designs): https://www.odeon-audio.com/modelle/

Kind regards
Christian

Hi Christian,

Thanks for sharing this information with me. That looks like low 90's sensitivity for the West's, and seems reasonable based on my experience.

The -6dB at 56Hz doesn't seem right to me at all, that's like a mini-monitor. In my room I get very good bass extension with my Westminsters, and they can literally rattle your chest and the furniture with deep bass response, so it makes me wonder how they arrived at that number. Something went wrong there with their methodology I suspect.

Overall I really like my Westminsters, they're really wonderful speakers in the right room. Harbeths are nice in small BBC-sized rooms (but not bigger rooms in my experience), but I ended up selling mine in preference for the vintage Altec's which are even better, even in a small Harbeth-sized room. I'm not familiar with the Odeon loudspeakers.

That's too bad about Altec's not being available where you live, as they are really impressively musical loudspeakers, and are generally a bargain compared to a lot of the new production loudspeakers. You can also drive them with a very small amount of power, which makes them very flexible in pairing with amplifiers.

Thanks for the great comment!

Kind regards,

Jeff

Hi Christian,

The similar story with my Altec 604E that was produced in the second half of 60x.
The declared sensitivity is 101dB/4ft. And the real sensitivity of mid-bass driver is 97.5dB/m.
Yes if HF control is turned on to maximum the sensitivity around 2-5KHz will be ~103dB/m, but nobody would listen this speaker with such setting!
But still, 97.5dB/m is not bad at all. In medium size room even 2watt amplifier can be enough to listen this speakers on reasonable level.

Regards,
Alex.

Hello Jeff,
thank you very much for your kind feedback. Attached you can see the measurement. Impedance minimum is 4.2ohm, which could also be a factor.

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/613ceaff8f872842f2b9ea95f67338c42c8899daedae5d9f741e8a29fc10da5b.png

Sadly there are some manufacturers out there who take the highest peak as "sensitivity" which is not correct related to Sengpiel (for example).

In case of the Westminster SE (one of the most beautiful loudspeakers I know/I'd love to hear them in a good room) it is far from the declared 99dB efficiency. But this is also the case with the Klipschorn, LaScala or the Cornwall III for example.

They (Stereoplay/Audio) measured many Tannoys, none of the have had the declared efficiency.

The Westminster is also declared with -6dB @ 18Hz, that is also not correct, the measured -6dB @ 56Hz, which is more realistic because such big woofers normally can't play that deep.

But roomgain helps and I way prefer authoritative and precise bass over deep wallow bass. I also can't stand dryness for the self purpose too. IMHO that kind of bass sounds unnatural. Bigger drivers also add a realness/self-image to the sound, which more smaller drivers with more hub don't have for my ears, but that is maybe up to me.

I have had many speakers but there are only a few brands left I'm interested in. Currently Odeon, Tannoy and Harbeth are my favorite brands (Altec speakers are hard to hear and not very common here).

Have a nice day.
Christian

I'm not sure I understand why completely either. My McIntosh MC30 monaural amps can put out up to 60 watts on peaks, even though they're rated at 30 watts, which is part of the reason.

The SIT-3 sounds really, really, good, but it doesn't sound like a tube amp per se. In a lot of ways it's better, and with the right speakers it's pretty amazing, certainly one of the best amps I've ever heard at any price, tube or solid-state.

The SIT-3 doesn't sound nearly as powerful as the MC30's. I'm guessing the SIT-3 would have to have around triple its rated watts to have the same dynamic ease as the MC30's.

Nelson tells me there is a more powerful Sony SIT based amp coming to the diyAudio Store in the future, which could be a lot of fun to build!

Kind regards,

Jeff

Thanks for the kind words, appreciated!

I really like my Westminster's, but they do seem to like power, and 30 watts of tube power (and up) or powerful solid-state amps really make them sing.

If the German magazine was accurate in their measurements that would explain a lot about why they need more power.

Any of my vintage Altec loudspeakers can raise the roof with just a few watts, but not so with the WRSE's.

Kind regards,

Jeff

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know that. I always thought you proved it and deleted it and didn't understood why because it was in no way meant offensive. I was only getting upset because I thought you deleted every post. I apologize. Have a nice day.

@power to control, I full agree. But "that tone/timbre" will be lost.

I own a 3 way Odeon No 28. SE horn loudspeaker. My room acoustic is optimized. The are claimed to have 93dB efficiency, I guess around 90dB would be realistic.

The Odeon have a Seas E0046-08S W26FX002 driver.

I have two amplifiers a Primare A30.1ss 100 watt @8ohm (second amp for TV sound etc.) and a Acoustic Masterpiece AM201H valve amplifier with 25 watt @ 8ohm.

What makes me wonder is that you can listend much louder with the vavle amplifier compared to the solid state (both are not clipping). If I achieve 95dB at the listening position (2,8m) the Primare has plenty of power left but sounds so exhausting. The bass is way to dominant and there is so much grain in the mids and heights.

The Primare A30.1 has a good reputation and plays really good at my friends Tannoy Turnberry GR, which also plays very well with the AM201H.

I don't get it. I know the correlation with listening distance, power, efficiency etc.. It is absolutely weird. I can achieve 100dB peaks at my listening position with the AM201H and listen without fatigue with the A30.1 I couldn't listen louder than 95dB peaks or my ears will start to bleed.

I'd like to have a little more headroom (power) therefore I'm looking for Pass stuff and found this great First Watt review.

The problem is, the Acoustic Masterpiece (Air Tight) play so wonderful, emotional with every kind of music form classic and jazz to rock and heavy metal. It always sounds right.

I have the apprehension that I will lose this magic with a ss, even if it is a Pass.

Kind regards

FYI, your comment is visible as you post it, but only to you for a short time, after which it disappears until we approve it. So it was not deleted, just waiting for approval at our end - which was this morning. Thanks for reading. Oh, and my experience is that while higher efficiency speakers will work with lower powered amplifiers, those speakers with larger drivers or even those with a larger number of drivers, will benefit with more power to control/move all that mass.