Comments on: Why USB Cables Can Make a Difference https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/ A Creative Forum for the Audio Arts Tue, 01 Nov 2022 19:38:38 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.6.2 By: Pasquale https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-2513 Sat, 24 Nov 2018 22:12:00 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-2513 In reply to Steelhead.

Files are sended with TCP protocol that have error correction and retransmissions.
Audio Streaming is send by Streaming protocols similar to UDP that don't have integrity check and retransmission (like the une used in audio en video call/conferences).
This is because DACs don't have a "bufferer" to store the songs before play it, they are just processing the streaming "on the fly".
There are Jitters that generate errors and can be measured...
I hope with this explanation you can understand.

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By: Pasquale https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-2510 Sat, 24 Nov 2018 22:02:00 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-2510 In reply to Barca.

A guy in a forum made measurements, here you can see the difference between a standard usb cable and a WireWorld Starlight 5.
Standard USB cable:
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6303d8df6a561cc08cdcaa24352ea61ed1301727851cf59c737de66c172771ff.jpg

WireWorld Starlight 5:
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7b5e0b89607ac89d21c737411b119705a0ac97738954baaf5d359475f2e8d5b8.jpg

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By: Skogrand Beethoven USB https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-862 Thu, 14 Jun 2018 20:23:06 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-862 […] In the past I have shared the thinking behind their designs and any potential impact on the music (HERE), and have reviewed a fair number in PF. The focus with this Ramblings is the USB cable from […]

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By: Kan hända https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-2061 Tue, 20 Feb 2018 21:45:00 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-2061 In reply to Joop de Veer.

Quote from the article:
"Alex Sventitsky, WyWires

There is no such thing as a
purely digital signal. Digital "data" is represented by electrical
signals that meet certain conditions. In the case of USB cables, these
conditions are robustly defined in the USB Standards Document. The data
transfer within a USB cable is accomplished by using two electrical
conductors, D+ and D-. USB defines one's and zero's as a difference
between the two electrical signals transmitted by D+ and D-. A One is
when the D+ signal is 200 millivolts greater than the D-signal. A Zero
is when the D+ signal is 200 millivolts LESS than the D- signal."

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By: Kan hända https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-2060 Tue, 20 Feb 2018 21:38:00 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-2060 In reply to Dave Clark.

+1.
From what I could read from the article, these people (cited, from each and every company) know what they are talking about. Much, if not all (I believe even all of it, I did read fast moments ago) of what they are citing can be found even in textbooks, technical documents and data-sheets from different manufacturers, pure EE stuff.

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By: Kan hända https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-2059 Tue, 20 Feb 2018 21:36:00 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-2059 In reply to Douglas Henning.

Proofs are already, from what I have read in the article, given (if the explanations given can be possibly attributed as the "indirect") already. So in a way, a textbook is given there, and details given in the article about digital signal being in effect an electrical signal, which is not strictly at the 0 or 1 level, but within the certain variation of the voltage levels (measured!) ) are telling clearly the story, even the explanation about jitter and possible internal interferences.

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By: Kan hända https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-2058 Tue, 20 Feb 2018 21:29:00 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-2058 In reply to lou hinkley.

+1 on this. Not an employee, nor related to any cable company, having been formally educated within EE and CSE it is easy to recognize all the arguments and details raised by the people from the industry, technical details raised and explained in the article. Furhtermore, I disagree with one of the previous comments here that there is "so little or no useful end user info. here in the article". On the contrary, there is a wealth of the info provided from each and every participant in the article.

Furthermore, I have just opened the box and instead of the generic USB, thin cable (USB A-B) provided with my headpone amp/dac started using the dedicated USB A-B audio cable.
I was entirely skeptical about any possible effect on the sound quality, to me it was like, "well, yeah"...
To my surprise, there is actually very noticeable difference in the quality and clearness of the sound, which is the integrity of the signal in the end. Reading the article after testing might be the ground for suspicion that the article is providing the placebo or justification (to me personally) for what I am experiencing, but even without running across the article, prior to reading it I felt immediate difference in the sound. It is really that obvious.

Just as a reminder, I had a negative (totally) bias prior to opening the box, towards this "dedicated" cable, and I was ready and set to return it.

To my surprise, still, now I have no intention whatsoever of returning it.

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By: Joop de Veer https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-1691 Thu, 08 Jun 2017 08:11:00 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-1691 In reply to Greg Weaver.

It will not sound different. Especially with a digital signal it´s a hoax to claim otherwise!

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By: Joop de Veer https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-1690 Thu, 08 Jun 2017 08:09:00 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-1690 In reply to Dave Elliott.

By empirically you mean ABX testing?

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By: Joop de Veer https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-1689 Thu, 08 Jun 2017 08:02:00 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-1689 This claim is simply not true. A USB cable transmits a digital signal. A higher voltage on pin D for a 1 and a lower voltage on pin D for a 0 with a voltage difference of 2,5V.
So if this pulse of voltage wil be corrupted so it wil not be a nice block wave.... IT DOESNT MATTER!
It will be read as a 1 or 0 anyway!
The claim that a cable can affect these pulses is not supported by physics of electronical signals. There is no technical explanation to support this claim at all! The cable just has to be decent without lose connectors. That´s it!
Next to it being a digital signal that is sent, there is also a communication protocol in place that will correct any errors that occur during the transfer process.

It seems the writer of this articel has a specific agenda.

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By: baskak https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-1594 Tue, 18 Apr 2017 19:53:00 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-1594 In reply to Sal1950.

This is fantastic. It seems the very idea of digital data transfer seems to be missing here, no to mention concepts like "checksum" or "bitperfect". The digital data transfer was actually invented especially to assure that the transferred data is identical to the (digital) source data. That's the very idea. The cable manufacturers' standpoint seems cynical at best.

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By: Sal1950 https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-1472 Tue, 17 Jan 2017 19:10:00 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-1472 In reply to Greg Weaver.

This whole post was a complete bunch of silliness. A gaggle of cable manufacturers post about how their simple data transfer cables can sound different from one another. What would you expect them to say? When they start to produce scientific evidence on how the bit stream is effected in a way that the DAC will recognize and produce a altered analog waveform from, you should then start paying attention. Or even a positive simple blind listening testing session might make it worth further investigation. If a USB cable does alter the data it is BROKEN. You'll never get anything in the way of scientific evidence because it doesn't and can't exist so what you get is statements that seed the mind with incorrect bias.
If any of this had validity you would have to worry about the digital data of anything else transferred via USB. But you don't, data transmission is a known technology and all this babble is just a maneuver to lighten your wallets.

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By: BillK https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-1471 Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:53:00 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-1471 In reply to Spiros Kouloumoundras.

The issue is it doesn't matter if file transfer takes nanoseconds longer due to retransmits; it's the streaming of audio and jitter in real time receipt of data that is a factor.

If the DAC were to wait until the entire file were transferred to the device as some memory-type players do, the cable would not matter as long as it transmitted the data intact.

Unfortunately most people would not find that solution acceptable as they would not want to wait 30 seconds for a song to transfer before they heard it, and since there are no de-facto stop points in audio streams, this would only work with data such as digital files you already own.

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By: s_timmel_Pirézvagyok_O1BNG https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-1468 Sun, 15 Jan 2017 18:35:00 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-1468 In reply to Greg Weaver.

well said.

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By: Greg Weaver https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-1462 Sat, 14 Jan 2017 03:50:00 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-1462 In reply to Sal1950.

You know, I get so tired of hearing how only blind tests can be "trusted." We are not testing medications for efficacy here, we are listening to emotionally moving and sense stirring music. Two chicken breasts, from the same chicken, prepared differently, will taste different, whether you are blindfolded or not. The analogy is the same; two cables of identical length, even of identical purity and casting of copper (if that could be possible), but constructed with differing geometries, dialectic materials, shielding, casings, and terminations WILL SOUND DIFFERENT...regardless of whether you want to hear it or not, or whether you can see them or not. Which one is preferred MAY differ between listeners, but they WILL sound different. Give up on the hyperbole and learn to trust the empirical evidence presented by one of the most complex and discerning test instruments ever developed, the human ear/brain connection. So, essentially, what Kemper said! 😉

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By: Hugh Mandeson https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-1459 Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:24:00 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-1459 Great article, obviously a lot of work. I hear great differences in cables all around and strive to know why but in the end I trust my ears.

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By: Sal1950 https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-1206 Thu, 19 May 2016 00:27:00 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-1206 In reply to Kemper Holt.

Sighted listening can supply no scientifically accepted evidence. All sort of bias will have control over what you believe to hear. If the differences in the cables were that "huge" you would be able to easily identify them under blinded conditions. I respect your listening impressions but to present them as anything more than opinions can not be justified. The gentleman sitting next to you could just a easily reported hearing something else or nothing at all. Genuinely "huge" differences in soundstaging should also be easily measured in such things as L-R balance, changes in phase, etc. Not something I see as possible in any correctly designed cable but I always remain open to looking at provided evidence.
Cheers, Sal

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By: Kemper Holt https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-1205 Wed, 18 May 2016 04:44:00 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-1205 In reply to Sal1950.

Not blind, but output levels carefully matched to 0.25 dB. It was very difficult, nearly impossible to tell 3 of the DACs apart, the cable differences were huge in comparison, mostly soundstage which changed from flat 2D, to expansive and a very developed sense of depth, again we were all surprised.

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By: Sal1950 https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-1204 Wed, 18 May 2016 02:02:00 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-1204 In reply to Kemper Holt.

Where those differences heard and the evidence tabulated under tightly controlled blind listening circumstances? I didn't see the recorded results posted.
TIA

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By: Dave Elliott https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-1200 Tue, 17 May 2016 12:23:00 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-1200 Too many past experiences with engineers asserting " this doesn't matter" for audio playback when I could empirically test and hear a difference. I can change the sound I hear using asynch USB with every USB cable swap. But IMHO thats because most USB input electronics used are cheap vs over engineered audiophile quality. Do a solid job of engineering the USB I/O electronics and those differences will flatten out

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By: Andrew Mitchell https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-1189 Sun, 17 Apr 2016 02:14:00 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-1189 In reply to Barca.

The incredible ignorance of audiophiles astounds me
of course digital signal transmission integrity can be measured lol

its a multibillion dollar business 🙂

http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/AND9075-D.PDF

please remember that the frequencies of transmission are around 6 MHZ, and therefore quite different properties from typical audio transmission frequencies

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By: Kemper Holt https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-1188 Wed, 13 Apr 2016 13:51:00 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-1188 I recently participated in an a 6 DAC comparison where the output level was made the same by measuring the voltage at the speaker terminals while playing the same 1,000 hz tone. We had 2 different cables to compare as well. The cables made a bigger difference, especially in imaging and soundstage, than the differences between the DACs. None of us was expecting this result, it surprised us.

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By: Positive Feedback https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-199 Mon, 21 Mar 2016 18:16:35 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-199 […] have read USB audio cable manufacturer claims (HERE) and many online reviews that claim that USB cables affect the sound. I do not disagree, but I […]

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By: Positive Feedback https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-178 Tue, 01 Mar 2016 04:07:10 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-178 […] We shall see. As it stands the JCAT Reference USB cable clearly addresses the issues mentioned HERE as it is easily a reference USB cable—and no pun […]

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By: Jim Ambras https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/why-usb-cables-can-make-a-difference/#comment-1150 Sat, 20 Feb 2016 21:58:00 +0000 http://positive-feedback.com/?p=7625#comment-1150 You list Andreas Koch as one of your Senior Technical Editors. Koch is the designer of the high end Playback Designs DACs. On his web site here is what he has to say about USB cables:

Q. What cable interface should I use?

A. With a properly designed DAC, as described above, none of these cables have a bearing, because all that the DAC expects from them is a truthful transmission of bits. Since all of them can do that I don’t expect any sonic differences. However, there are differences in length, cost, universal application. I personally use USB due to it’s bandwidth and ability to transfer the highest resolution files available. Since the cable is not transferring an analog signal, the differences you may hear between cables will most likely only be due to shielding.

When the owner of a Benchmark Audio DAC2 HGC DAC contacted Benchmark to get a recommendation for a long USB cable, they recommended to the owner buy the best $6.95 cable they could find.

So I would suggest as a followup article surveying DAC designers (who are not affiliated with cable companies), and get their input on the value of high end USB cables.

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